tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post4728716969891632186..comments2024-03-28T22:29:05.434+00:00Comments on Relational psychiatry: What does it mean to say that antidepressants are not addictive?DBDoublehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16140020984190294123noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-60857381017082369502014-05-02T15:44:06.234+01:002014-05-02T15:44:06.234+01:00The stubborness of the medical community makes me ...The stubborness of the medical community makes me furious. Some doctors really are ignorant, arrogant fools. Antidepressants make PHYSICAL changes in the brain. Why, o why, is it so hard then to accept that withdrawal is physical? Hello? Is this a joke? And I agree, first try some SSRI's yourself then come back! Why wouldn't you? They are completely safe! That's what I was told by my doctor before my life was ruined.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-89326810418565550592013-02-01T21:40:27.258+00:002013-02-01T21:40:27.258+00:00duncan double,you just talk rubbish.you obviously ...duncan double,you just talk rubbish.you obviously have never taken them.why dont you try taking them and see if what you are experiencing is all in your mind,<br />when you try to get off them?<br />go and look at Dr Peter Breggins site.<br />these drugs have the same effects on the brain as illegal drugs which widely are known to cause physical withdrawal.<br />or perhaps there are legal and illegal serotonin systems in the brain?<br />its not even an argument.it sounds stupid to talk about it as one.<br />im sure going to say,im qualified.<br />i know all about it.<br />well,heres an idea.<br />i know alot about the moon.have read quite abit about it too.<br />but i wouldnt tell Neil Armstrong what its like to go there though.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04116851335533850448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-6011650440067435832013-01-30T16:34:29.557+00:002013-01-30T16:34:29.557+00:00Thanks, anonymous, of course I realise the integra...Thanks, anonymous, of course I realise the integrated nature of psychological and physical. And I agree discontinuation problems are not necessarily signs of a relapse.DBDoublehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140020984190294123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-15033842034772099212013-01-29T20:33:25.892+00:002013-01-29T20:33:25.892+00:00Dr. Double apparently you have disengaged from thi...Dr. Double apparently you have disengaged from this discussion. But with the hopes of your return, regarding your statement that physical symptoms can have psychological roots, may I also remind you that psychological symptoms can have physical roots. As one with Graves' disease, an autoimmune disease, that accounts for one of the highest rates of psychiatric misdiagnosis. <br /><br />And hopefully someday, your psych community, will stop making the general assumption that the symptoms caused by the discontinuation of a drug, especially when many of these symptoms were never experienced prior to the initiation of the drug, are direct proof of the preexisting condition returning.<br /><br />The theory that the symptoms abate as soon as the drug is reinstated being any indication that the drug is necessary is foolhardy and dangerous. If heroin is reinstated to someone who has stopped the drug, odds are their discontinuation syndrome will subside just as rapidly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-28520205671662735702013-01-29T18:01:02.661+00:002013-01-29T18:01:02.661+00:00Personally I believe that describing withdrawal as...Personally I believe that describing withdrawal as "discontinuation syndrome" is simply a re-branding exercise by pharmaceutical companies. <br /><br />The type of unusual symptoms such as "brain zaps" which are widely reported all over the internet can hardly be psychological. <br /><br />Does anybody know if there have been animal studies of these withdrawal effects? If so it would be hard to claim these effects were psychological if they could be shown in animals. <br /><br />I'm quite surprised to see an article like this from a member of the critical psychiatry network. It seems very a very typical psychiatrist's perspective to me - placing the blame on the patients for damage done by the drugs. SOAPhttp://www.speakoutagainstpsychiatry.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-21072944239257052562013-01-29T11:00:24.082+00:002013-01-29T11:00:24.082+00:00As I may have previously mentioned or not, (how is...As I may have previously mentioned or not, (how is that for covering all bases?), I took nearly 4 years to taper off of a 4 med psych cocktail.<br /><br />I had come to a point where I felt the side effects were greatly outweighing any benefits I was receiving. In fact, I felt no psychological dependency whatsoever since in my opinion, the benefits were so minimal.<br /><br />Additionally, I had no expectations at all as to what type of withdrawal issues I would have. I mean, how can you really know since at the time I started, withdrawal wasn't exactly a well studied subject.<br /><br />Well, in spite of tapering very slowly, I definitely had withdrawal symptoms that weren't psychological in nature as they would appear without warning when I was in a great mood. <br /><br />One symptom that became psychological was insomnia which is totally understandable when you go without sleep for a repeated period.<br /><br />And because I was diagnosed with apnea a year ago which I am convinced I have had for many years, perhaps if I had been diagnosed with it during my withdrawal from psych meds, I wouldn't have had either physical or psychological issues.<br /><br />Personally, as one who dealt with a psychiatrist during withdrawal who was waiting for me to fail, I am so grateful for sites like Altos and feel the vicious attacks are completely unwarranted. I am grateful to her for continuing to point out the fallacies in Dr. Double's arguments about antidepressant discontinuation being due to psychological dependence.<br /><br />Unless these positions are challenged, people who are continuing to experience horrific withdrawal symptoms due to physical reasons will continue to be thrown under the bus by their psychiatrists. As a result, Alto's board will stay in business for years.<br /><br />AA<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-75848814335305368882013-01-29T02:01:18.616+00:002013-01-29T02:01:18.616+00:00Altostrata exaggerates the evidence. I challenge a...Altostrata exaggerates the evidence. I challenge altostrata to table the neurological tests, scans of HER particular nervous system's alleged "damage".<br /><br />She can't. She thinks "patient stories" prove widespread neurological damage. They don't.<br /><br />It is quite possible that hypochondria has taken hold in the antidepressant withdrawal syndrome enthusiast community.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-25918254422040319122013-01-29T01:21:54.103+00:002013-01-29T01:21:54.103+00:00I do believe anti-depressants are psychologically ...I do believe anti-depressants are psychologically addictive in the sense that people BELIEVE they need them because of what they've been told by those who prescribe them. But what's more important to note is that they are physically addictive. This is important for those who wish to come off of them to be aware of so they can begin to educate themselves how to properly come off of them...which has to be longterm, like for many months at least. (Dr. Ann Blake Tracy discusses this at length). If anti-depressants are not addictive, then there would be no w/d symptoms. But because they are EXTREMELY physically addictive, people suffer terrible w/d symptoms when they suddenly stop or taper them too quickly. Then what typically happens is their w/d symptoms get misdiagnosed as their "mental disorders" returning, and they get reinstated on the drugs. For those who taper long-term, w/d symptoms can be more tolerable, and when they finish, they feel less inclined to go back on them. So I would like to see more artivle written by how physically addictive these drugs are. I believe they are as, if not more, addictive than street drugs.Jennifernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-43070135926785180512012-11-29T12:23:29.340+00:002012-11-29T12:23:29.340+00:00Dr. Double, you are an idiot. Altostrata knows far...Dr. Double, you are an idiot. Altostrata knows far more about this subject than you, despite your arrogant assertions. I suggest you take Effexor for several years and then do a cold turkey withdrawal. THEN let's see if you think the withdrawal symptoms are primarily psychological.Do your homework! You are ill informed and just the type of dangerous "doctor" who has condemned so many of us to this pharmaceutical HELL. (By the way...I did not take Effexor for psychological problems!) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-72464355099293074982012-11-11T21:20:26.795+00:002012-11-11T21:20:26.795+00:00Dear oh dear.
What hope is there is even a respec...Dear oh dear.<br /><br />What hope is there is even a respected critical psychiatrist such as Dr Double denies that SS/NRI withdrawal is physiological.<br /><br />I sit here, 23 months off effexor, in tremendous physical pain, all my nerve endings burning, my head blaring with tinnitus, various muscles visibly spasming - and I'm supposed to simply accept the view that it might all be psychosomatic? Or some other mystery illness that coincided with withdrawal?<br /><br />Well, maybe that would be reasonable if it wasn't for the HUNDREDS of other people that I am in touch with going through a virtually identical experience. Many of these - myself included - were originally given the drugs for a physical, not mental, disorder.<br /><br />Altostrata makes so many compelling points and the massive weight of evidence supports a physiological phenomenon. To continue denying this is not just irrational, it's insulting to those of us going through it. Heretohelpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-62911372601749909692012-11-02T03:09:09.892+00:002012-11-02T03:09:09.892+00:00Chrys Muirhead is a psychiatric activist who perha...Chrys Muirhead is a psychiatric activist who perhaps does not realize addiction, as defined, has two components: psychological dependency and physical dependency.<br /><br />She may be unaware that, by definition, non-addictive drugs may incur physical dependency without psychological dependency.<br /><br />This is, in fact, true of most psychiatric drugs -- they incur physical dependency without psychological dependency -- and why the inserts of many include warnings about discontinuation and advice to taper.<br /><br />It is physical dependency that causes withdrawal symptoms. Psychological dependency causes recidivism.<br /><br />(Benzos, a special case, are truly "addictive," incurring both psychological and physiological dependency, although not necessarily both in all individuals.)<br /><br />Diane perhaps does not know that psychiatric drugs act on the nervous system, and adverse effects arise from nervous system dysregulation.<br /><br />But, Dr. Double, you surely know all of these facts, as well as psychiatry's definition of "addiction." <br /><br />To make a fairly tortured argument that antidepressants meet both conditions of "addictiveness," you've thrown people who suffer from the neurological dysfunction of antidepressant withdrawal under the bus.<br /><br />(This is not appreciated by those of us who have suffered the hell of withdrawal syndrome.)<br /><br />If withdrawal symptoms are psychosomatic, the rate of tapering would be immaterial, wouldn't it? Even severe symptoms following cold turkey could be treated with psychotherapy.<br /><br />Really, why should there be an injunction against cold turkey of any psychiatric drug if withdrawal symptoms are only psychosomatic?<br /><br />Problem solved. I can close my psychiatric drug withdrawal peer support site.Altostratahttp://survivingantidepressants.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-37522613511094538222012-10-27T16:08:07.981+01:002012-10-27T16:08:07.981+01:00I'm confused because I had always thought that...I'm confused because I had always thought that a withdrawal syndrome proved addiction because it could force someone to keep using a substance even if they had chosen not to and isn't that what addiction is? <br /><br />Somebody decides that they no longer want to take ativan because it makes them feel like a zombie. So they stop and start having panic attacks and seizures therefore they have to start taking it again even though they don't want too - isn't this addiction? <br /><br />Since when did addiction involve doing things that you wanted to do because you enjoyed them (psychological compulsion, choice)?<br /><br />Does this mean that people can become addicted to things that do not "trick" the body into thinking that it's needs it? Can people really become addicted to shopping, or chocolate? Is that what addiction really is?<br /><br /><br />If it is, I think the word should be redefined. I think it's an insult to the many people who have fought and died from biological addictions to suggest that an addiction can exist with no biological withdrawal syndrome producing it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-89665448805661483882012-10-08T18:59:25.868+01:002012-10-08T18:59:25.868+01:00Diane, where exactly do you think withdrawal sympt...Diane, where exactly do you think withdrawal symptoms take place? <br /><br />Do you think brain zaps, a very common antidepressant withdrawal symptom, indicate a normally functioning nervous system?<br /><br />If you look at the range of symptoms (for instance: Antidepressant Discontinuation Syndromes: Common, Under-Recognised and Not Always Benign, Drug Ther Perspect 17(20):12-15, 2001.), you will see they have the autonomic nervous system in common.Altostratahttp://survivingantidepressants.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-42564157939067842662012-10-06T07:56:50.559+01:002012-10-06T07:56:50.559+01:00Anonymous you may be right about anti-d's bein...Anonymous you may be right about anti-d's being addictive for some. I'm not sure.<br /><br />It may be more about what a person thinks about the pill they're taking and the power it has. Eg if they think it made them feel better then they might be fearful of coming off it, for then they could become unwell again.<br /><br />For me, I didn't think the anti-d worked so had no problem in coming off it. Same with the lithium. Didn't believe it was of any use. <br /><br />The anti-psychotic did seem to take me out of the psychosis but it was a harsh bringing back to reality and gave me low mood. However it may have been the hospitalisation that brought me out of the psychosis, I don't know, for no-one gave me any time to try and get out of the psychosis by myself.<br /><br />Psychiatry is a rough treatment. I describe it like taking a skelf (sliver of wood) out of your finger with a sledgehammer. Wrong tools for the job. More damage done than what you went in for. And the skelf probably just came out by itself after the battering the finger got.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-30222183043166868632012-10-06T01:16:01.232+01:002012-10-06T01:16:01.232+01:00Maybe antidepressants are addictive for some, and ...Maybe antidepressants are addictive for some, and not for others?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-48959390012027297442012-10-03T13:39:47.448+01:002012-10-03T13:39:47.448+01:00"Perhaps we need to debate what the evidence ..."Perhaps we need to debate what the evidence is for physical withdrawal - you don't say what it is."<br /><br />I couldn't agree more. Altostrata has a habit of putting out much disinformation about her beliefs around "nerve damage". <br /><br />Dianenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-67086494311922270022012-10-03T05:43:19.847+01:002012-10-03T05:43:19.847+01:00I've read briefly through all the comments and...I've read briefly through all the comments and wanted to say something about my experience of coming off Venlafaxine (effexor), in 2003/4. Which I managed to do without any problems, mentally or physically. I wasn't aware of other people's experiences at the time and just did what I thought sounded reasonable.<br /><br />In March 2002 I had a psychosis and was put on risperidone when hospitalised. Then I got depressed on the anti-psychotic, it had happened to me before in 1978 and 1984. The drugs bringing me quickly out of the psychosis put me into a low mood. So the psychiatrist put me on venlafaxine for the depression. This didn’t happen in the earlier episodes so I just worked through it and recovered after about a year. However in 2002 on the venlafaxine I had suicidal thoughts and took an overdose one day on impulse, rushed into hospital in an ambulance etc. Very scary, had never done anything like it before, I was 50yrs old. So the psychiatrist put me on maximum doses of venlafaxin. <br /><br />I was very flat, couldn’t make decisions, the psychiatrist put me on lithium, to ‘augment’ the anti-depressant, still flat etc. By this time he had taken me off the risperidone. So I decided to take charge of my own mental health, started doing things eg volunteering, going to courses. Didn’t feel like it but got up and went. Started to feel a bit better so began to reduce the venlafaxine, gradually over a few months. I’d been on it about a year I think. I was fine off it. Which left the lithium. 800mgs of it, reduced it by 200mgs a month, against advice of psychiatrist. But I didn’t listen to him. And was fine off it and all the drugs.<br /><br />Now I don’t smoke or drink alcohol (don’t like the taste) and at that time wasn’t on any other medication. Not sure if this is why it wasn’t too difficult for me to get off the psych drugs. But I had got off the chlorpromazine after puerperal/postpartum psychotic episodes in both 1978 and 1984 so knew that it could be done. I’ve never been in the habit of listening to psychiatrists when in good mental health so it just required me to feel a bit better to be able to take charge again of my own mental health. <br /><br />I’ve helped family members get off psychiatric drugs after psychotic episodes. My own experience was of use in this. Obviously their journey will have been different to mine but the thing is that all our journeys are not the same. For me I got off the psych drugs with not too much difficulty, the main problem being psychiatry. But even then I was still able to take charge when able to. Which I did.<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-37883551762083701302012-10-01T14:38:00.639+01:002012-10-01T14:38:00.639+01:00AA, I'm not blaming all physical symptoms on p...AA, I'm not blaming all physical symptoms on psychological causes. I agree suspected neonatal withdrawal syndrome is evidence in favour of physical withdrawal but I keep an open mind about this. I'm sorry you think I am blaming the patient for withdrawal symptoms, because this is not correct. I'm merely pointing to the psychological difficulty of stopping a drug which is thought to have improved mood. I don't think you can deny the importance of this, however much you think withdrawal is also physical in nature.DBDoublehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140020984190294123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-62580069821442262202012-09-30T15:32:17.777+01:002012-09-30T15:32:17.777+01:00"Physical symptoms can have a psychological c..."Physical symptoms can have a psychological cause, anonymous."<br /><br />Agree but to blame all physical symptoms on psychological causes flies in the face of reality. Alto's example of baby's experiencing withdrawal is a perfect example of this. Also, the personal experiences of other posters are great examples.<br /><br />You know, I find it very disappointing that an esteemed member of the critical psychiatry network such as yourself is coming across as blaming the patient for withdrawal issues. Yes, by blaming psychological and not physical issues, in spite of the information you list in your book, which I alluded to previously, that is exactly what you are doing in my opinion.<br /><br />AA Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-77695405487608312982012-09-30T07:53:31.557+01:002012-09-30T07:53:31.557+01:00I agree, Altostrata, that the way to manage discon...I agree, Altostrata, that the way to manage discontinuation problems may well be to reinstate the drug, even partially, and then try again more slowly if the patient wants to and is ready to do so. Just because it hasn't worked once does not mean that it will necessarily not work again.DBDoublehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140020984190294123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-66582785427336014322012-09-30T01:40:36.018+01:002012-09-30T01:40:36.018+01:00I've had crushing depression, fatigue, nausea,...I've had crushing depression, fatigue, nausea, diarrhoea, etc after forgetting a single dose of Effexor. Bearing in mind that I am usually unaware that I've forgotten to take my dose while experiencing these symptoms. It's not until AFTER I go to take the next dose that I realise I've missed one the day before.<br /><br />They go away about an hour or so after taking the next dose.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-43057654559116723922012-09-29T19:55:39.489+01:002012-09-29T19:55:39.489+01:00Dr. Double, caring psychotherapeutic treatment can...Dr. Double, caring psychotherapeutic treatment can do a lot of good, but when the doctor denies the patient's reality, it does a lot of harm.<br /><br />When patients are suffering withdrawal syndrome, what they need is partial reinstatement of the drug (if very recently quit) and subsequent slower tapering, not to be told they are somehow psychologically generating their symptoms.<br /><br />It's a primary pitfall of psychotherapy that the mental health expert reinterprets the patient's reality. The doctor, rather, than the patient, holds the correct interpretation of what the patient is feeling.<br /><br />This can undermine the patient's confidence and mental health. When it comes to withdrawal syndrome, it can undermine physical health as well.<br /><br />You posit your theory against massive scientific evidence; concordance among medicine, pharma (however reluctant), patient advocates, and withdrawal experts (Breggin, Healy, Glenmullen, Haddad, Fava, etc.); and testimony from the patients themselves.<br /><br />All but the last might be understandable, as experts may be wrong and, in psychiatry, universal agreement is not entirely trustworthy.<br /><br />But to deny what patients are telling you about their experience is a very, very grave error. <br /><br />Patients experiencing withdrawal symptoms run into all kinds of denial from doctors. Sometimes the doctor doesn't "believe in" withdrawal symptoms at all -- apparently the doctor thinks the patient is fabricating or, maybe, picking up some nonsense from the Web.<br /><br />Sometimes the doctor believes the lie that withdrawal symptoms are invariably mild and last only a couple of weeks, and dismiss further complaints.<br /><br />Sometimes the doctor tells the patient "it's all in your mind."<br /><br />Sometimes the doctor tells the patient outright that he or she is deluded.<br /><br />Patients hear this, compare what they know of their reality versus the doctor's intepretation of it, and lose respect for the doctor.<br /><br />There is a limit to the mystique of a medical degree.<br /><br />The hundreds of thousands of postings by patients all over the Web complaining of severe withdrawal symptoms and the 365 case histories on my site are there DESPITE the patients having heard such rationalizations from their doctors. <br /><br />The patients INSIST they understand their own reality better -- and they're right.<br /><br />They often say things like "my doctor said it's psychological but I feel there's something physical about it" or "I'm feeling it in my body, not my head."<br /><br />They find that CBT or other techniques don't eliminate the symptoms. They go through long periods of guilt and frustration thinking they haven't done therapy right.<br /><br />In fact, it takes time -- months or years -- for the neurological dysregulation of withdrawal syndrome to resolve. Not much can be done to hurry this, which is why gradual individualized tapering, withdrawal symptom recognition, and reinstatement are essential medical knowledge for doctors. <br /><br />As in any chronic condition, psychological techniques can help the patient cope with symptoms, but they do not eliminate the symptoms.Altostratahttp://survivingantidepressants.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-67194103132526314532012-09-29T18:25:26.742+01:002012-09-29T18:25:26.742+01:00Physical symptoms can have a psychological cause, ...Physical symptoms can have a psychological cause, anonymous.DBDoublehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140020984190294123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-34516124221106107122012-09-29T17:04:46.983+01:002012-09-29T17:04:46.983+01:00Dr. Doubleday,
I am confused in reading this blog...Dr. Doubleday,<br /><br />I am confused in reading this blog entry. You seem to be inferring that the primary antidepressant withdrawal symptoms are due to psychological dependence. Yet in your book, "Why were doctors so slow to recognise antidepressant discontinuation problems", there is this exert:<br /><br />Many of the reported symptoms associated with SSRI withdrawal are physical rather than psychological. Schatzberg, et al (1997) divided the somatic symptoms into five clusters: (1) disequilibrium (eg. dizziness, vertigo, ataxia) (2) gastrointestinal symptoms (eg. nausea, vomiting) (3) flu-like symptoms (eg. fatigue, lethargy, myalgia, chills) (4) sensory disturbances (eg. paraesthesias, sensations of electric shock), and (5) sleep disturbances (eg. insomnia, vivid dreams). "<br /><br />Can you please clarify this discrepancy?<br /><br />Also, you seemed to be inferring that since anxiety was the number one symptom of AD withdrawal as 71% people reported this, that AD withdrawal had to psychologically and physically addictive.<br /><br />However, dizziness (61%)<br />vivid dreams (51%)<br />electric shocks / head zaps (48%) were also reported and these are physical in nature. Therefore, I am perplexed as to how you can reach the conclusion that you did.<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />AAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18614557.post-28929538907913936552012-09-29T10:36:11.612+01:002012-09-29T10:36:11.612+01:00I would agree with your logic, Altostrata, IF peop...I would agree with your logic, Altostrata, IF people are really blinded in clinical trials. But people can guess whether they are on antidepressants rather than placebo in a clinical trial by more than chance expectation. So it is possible that antidepressant discontinuation is an amplified nocebo response. <br /><br />Of course, if there really is as obvious a physical withdrawal as you say, then people will be unblinded in trials because of their hunches related to the fact that they have experienced problems. So, I don't know how we resolve this issue easily by experimental work. Just asking for people's guesses (although as far as I know this study has not been done) is unlikely to resolve the issue.<br /><br />As I've said before, at least we're agreed that antidepressant discontinuation problems are real - I'm not saying they're factitious - and can be very disabling.DBDoublehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140020984190294123noreply@blogger.com